The automobile is ready for a revolution, and so are its drivers. In this week’s edition of DT Debate, our own Amir Illiaifar and Nick Mokey go head-to-head over the fuel that’s going to power this revolution. Will the EV pull through, or do we need to start looking elsewhere? This week we ask:
Nick |
Unless “the future of cars” only involves puttering around for 80 miles at a time then desperately searching for a cord so you can wait 20 hours to drive home, then no. Electric cars seem to be growing in popularity, but they remain insanely impractical. The truth is, there are already much better alternative fuels you can use right now.
First, the case against electrics: They have limited range of no more than a couple hundred miles, and only a few can even make it that far. They’re so slow to recharge that you have no hope of ever going far from home in one – even if you could string together enough charging stations for a trip. They’re extraordinarily expensive, and they use expensive battery packs that wear out before the rest of the car does – which also present an environmental hazard to dispose of. Their “green” factor is mostly an illusion, since half the electricity in the United States is generated by fossil fuels anyway.
So what genius alternative do I suggest? Biodiesel. Yes, the same crazy potion that some hippie is stirring up in his backyard with a 55-gallon drum of deep dryer oil. You don’t need new infrastructure, because you can pump it through the same network of 117,100 gas stations in the US that already exist. There is no “recharge time.” You can run it in existing (diesel) cars with no modifications. In many places, it’s cheaper than regular diesel – currently $3.99 a gallon here in Portland. And for those of you who are really in this for the karma: Because plants suck up carbon when they grow then throw it back out when they burn, it’s (theoretically) carbon neutral, unlike electricity from coal power plants.
Are there barriers? Yes, and I hope you’ll point them out, but I would buy a $23,000 Volkswagen Golf TDI over a $35,000 Nissan Leaf in a heartbeat right now.
Amir |
I’d like to start off by saying there really isn’t a single solution that will satisfy our alternative energy needs. Rather, it’s going to take a nuanced approach to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels. That being said, whether you like it or not, “the future of cars” (at the least the immediate future of cars) is electric. Don’t believe me? Ask Nissan, Toyota, General Motors, etc. That’s not to say there aren’t viable alternatives to battery-powered cars (you specifically pointed out biodiesel) but truth be told, there are inherent problems with virtually all alternative energy sources at the moment, biodiesel included.
What problems you ask? Well for starters there aren’t that many diesel cars in the U.S. to begin so either way people are going to have to either purchase a car that can run diesel or opt for an electron-powered alternative like a Nissan Leaf. Second, biodiesel fuel isn’t as readily available as you make it out to be, and when it is available is often more expensive than gasoline –the most expensive station near Portland is is selling it for $5.55 a gallon. That’s certainly a lot more than what it costs to charge a Nissan Leaf. For example, most public charging places are free — for now — but when they do in fact start charging people, the average price will hover around $1 per hour of charging. I’ll give you that the time investment can be annoying, but most will only need to charge their cars once a day at home anyway.
Now electric cars aren’t perfect by any means, but they are just as good of an alternative as biodiesel, if not better. Yes they are expensive, charging times need to improve, and range can be an issue (although this is grossly overstated by EV opponents) but the technology is here, electricity is all around us, and guess what? It’s continuously improving. The technology is still relatively new and unrefined but it will get better, faster, and cheaper. Not to mention EVs are cheaper to operate than their gasoline counterparts, all-electrics produce zero-emissions from their tailpipes (oh wait, they don’t have tailpipes!), and have improved performance ratios, but I’ll get to that later.
Nick |
Nuanced approach? Haven’t you ever watched CNN? That makes for terrible debates, Amir. But I’ll bite and concede: Electric cars make sense for urban dwellers who never need to leave the city, fleet use, and some other limited scenarios. But the majority of Americans who care about the environment and want to make a green vehicle purchase would be better off buying a diesel and filling it up with biodiesel right now.
You’re right that both technologies will get better over time: electrics will get faster, cheaper, and charger quicker, biodiesel will become more widely available and cheaper. But the EV you buy today is stuck with the constraints of today’s technology forever, while a diesel owner benefits every time the fuel situation improves.
And it will improve. I’m not crazy enough to suggest we can stop pumping oil tomorrow and start growing it all with soy (until I get my bribe check from Monsanto). But the prospect of growing algae for biodiesel in massive oceanic farms is getting closer to reality every day. And again, the energy you consume driving on plant-based fuels essentially comes from the sun, not from coal or natural gas, which is often the case with electricity.
As for compatibility with existing vehicles, yes, diesels only account for about 1 percent of new cars sold in the U.S. right now, but EVs are even more of a fraction (0.3 percent, as of April). And the rest of the world is far more endeared to diesel. In Europe, close to half of all passenger vehicles sold run on diesel. That’s not to mention commercial equipment: semi trucks, delivery trucks, locomotives, construction equipment, boats, busses, you name it. If it’s heavy, it runs on diesel.
EVs make sense for some applications, but when you look at their range limitations, high up-front cost, limited battery lives, and the pollution produced where the electricity comes from, I’m not convinced they’re the best alternative to gas right now.
Amir |
I know you’re arguing that biodisesel makes sense now and in the future, but I think you’re missing the point here Nick (please don’t fire me for disagreeing with you). The fact is: biofuels — specifically the biodiesel magic juice you’re championing — aren’t a viable option now, and until those massive oceanic algae farms actually come about, it’s not a great option for the environment either.
Biofuels have been around for some time now, and there is a reason they haven’t taken off, and no it’s not all because of big oil standing in the way – although I’ll admit they may have their hand in the cookie jar, err… oil drum. Many environmentalists are opposed to biofuels like soy-based biodiesel because of its negative impact on the environment. According to recent research conducted by Princeton University and the Nature Conservancy, almost all biofuels today cause MORE greenhouse gas emissions than conventional fuels once you factor in the full environmental cost it takes to produce them and has been found to be the leading cause in rising global food prices.
And it makes sense, if we are going to start utilizing biodiesel more and more it needs to come from somewhere, right? As more land is used to plant soybeans for fuel not only is more carbon released into the atmosphere, but those lands and the crops it produces are being taken away from production. Last I checked, according to U.N. reports, there are over 900 million people worldwide suffering from malnutrition and hunger. If we can’t even provide adequate amounts of food now (actually we can but that’s another debate), then how are we supposed to when the world (or even the U.S. alone) needs those very crops we use to feed ourselves for fuel?
I know you disagree, but electrics are much more viable now. Electricity is all around us, it’s relatively cheap, and it can be harnessed from truly renewable sources like the sun and the wind. It’s not perfect, but as the technology is refined and continued advancements are made, it stands as one of the better options for alternatively powering our vehicles.
Nick |
You’ll hear no disagreement from me that biodiesel isn’t the perfect solution right now, but neither is electricity – that’s why we’re talking about the future, and which alternative fuel makes the most sense to focus on moving forward. I’m no more for blanketing the Midwest in soy fields to make biodiesel any more than you’re for strip mining the entire country of Bolivia to make lithium batteries. Either of these technologies carried to their extreme would cause major problems right now. So yes, my argument rests on more advanced technology – which exists but hasn’t been deployed on a large scale — that would allow us to grow biodiesel in the ocean.
As for that Princeton study, note that it critiques not biodiesel but “biofuels,” which includes ethanol. Lumping biodiesel in with ethanol is like lumping Alec in with the rest of the Baldwins – it’s the outlying exception in a miserable pool of failure. Without getting derailed here, ethanol (as a fuel, not delicious booze) is a complete sham that was foisted on the American people through subsidy-grubbing politicians, and the Princeton study is correct. It’s not good for anyone.
My beef with electricity is chiefly this: We’re making most of it by burning dredged up dinos anyway. If we had clean, abundant fusion power plants supplying electricity to outlets everywhere, it would be worth the inconvenience (long charging times, limited range) and expense ($10,000 batteries) required to make electric cars. But instead we’re going through great lengths to mostly shift our CO2 production somewhere else.
Biodiesel is essentially liquid solar energy. Not just the fuel itself but the methods required to supply it are relatively clean and sustainable, and new tech will allow it to scale. Unless the breakthrough for boundless clean electricity is just around the corner, to me, biodiesel still makes more sense.
Amir |
Again I have to disagree. This isn’t just an environmental argument, although it can quickly derail into one. No, this is about what makes sense now and in the future. There is an underlying element here and — at the expense of sounding like some border-patrolling militiamen — it centers on national security. Electrically-powered vehicles provide a viable alternative now and in the future to shaking our dependence on oil from regions that are not only unstable, but overtly hostile. Again, EVs are far from perfect, and the limitations you brought up are spot on, but battery tech is constantly getting better. It’s already decent now, in the future with advancements in inductive (wireless) charging technology we may even be able to charge our cars while on the go.

Biodiesel vs electric is a non argument. There is not enough feasibly available lanthanum in the world to go full electric, and there’s not enough feasibly available biomass to be converted to biodiesel. They are both dead ends.
Salomon, hydrogen is certainly a ‘fuel’. If you’ve learned so much jargon that you’ve forgotten the definition of that word, I suggest that you go refresh your memory.
Hydrogen IS the fuel of the future. However, it’s as useless today as electric or biodiesel, which are both functionally -useless- other than as marketing tools. As long as we are heavily reliant on coal, oil, and nuclear energy to produce our fuels, we are stuck. The only possible answer is large scale exploitation of green energy sources. Solar is the most readily exploitable today, but with proper investment there are a number of options.
I think Chevrolet has got it right for right now and that is why I chose to lease a Volt. Most days I go back and forth to work. There are errands to run, a show to go see, dinner with friends etc… In my world that is about 30 to 40 miles a day, and the same is true for a large majority of Americans. On the busier days the gas engine kicks on and charges my batteries as I go about my business.
I have driven about 1000 miles and still have half of my 9.3 gallon tank full of gasoline. The cool thing is the next time I want to drive to California or Arizona from my home in Las Vegas I can. But I only do that 2 or 3 times a year.
I chose to Lease the vehicle because I know the technology is going to improve and in 3 years I want to be driving a new Xbox instead of my old Atari. If every American had the technology of the Volt in their personal vehicle where they could drive the first 40 miles of every day on Electric we could Fire OPEC.
What does it mean to Fire Opec? This cuts off money to places that don’t really like us (like our ally Pakistan who jailed the one guy that really helped us get bin Laden), this negates the current offering of 7 Billion Dollars a year to the Oil Industry for Foreign Tax Credits and other subsidies, this allows us to draw down the military from protecting our “interests” in the Middle East. We become essentially Energy Independent.
Bio-Diesel is a great concept and I am not at all against it. Why is there a dichotomy here? Why don’t we just develop both technologies. I think if we can all support the concept of making America energy independent we all win. That being said there are a lot of people starving in this world and providing food should be the #1 useage of our land. If going bio-diesel means fewer crops to feed people I am not too thrilled. However if we can develop the technology of algae farms and other non-food options for Bio-Diesel that would rock. Or just our bio waste… sort of like the Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor in Back to the Future. eh?
Nick, permit me to correct you on a few errors in your portion of the debate.
First, electric vehicles are in fact drastically cleaner than gas vehicles, even when charged from a grid supplied mostly by fossil fuels. This is because electric motors are 85% efficient at turning stored energy into wheel motion versus a 15% efficiency for internal combustion engines, which lose most of the energy in gas to waste heat, vibration and transmission friction. As a result, EVs consume much less energy per mile driven, and as such incur less pollution. Here is an MIT study demonstrating this: http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_wtw.pdf
Secondly, please compare the process of generating power in your state in a combined cycle coal power plant at 60% efficiency (http://www.ge-flexibility.com/solutions/flexefficiency-50-combined-cycle-power-plant/index.html) sending it over power lines at just a 7% loss (http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/) to your home and charging a lithium battery at 99% efficiency (http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries) to the process of drilling for oil at sea, burning some of that oil in tanker vessels to get it to shoreside refineries, using electricity to refine that oil into various petroleum products, then burning gasoline in tanker trucks to get that fuel to various gas stations nationwide. It isn’t difficult to see how the supply infrastructure for electricity is enormously less wasteful and as a result incurs less pollution by far.
The Leaf does not travel only 80 miles per charge. The EPA rating is *averaged*, taking into account all possible driving conditions including sub zero weather, which dragged down the overall figure. In normal weather, actual Leaf owners report a range of around 93 miles. Additionally, it does not as you claim take 20 hours to recharge except in the worst case scenario using the 110v adapter. You seem to have assumed the worst for EVs across the board while giving an unrealistically rosy appraisal of biofuels. In fact the Leaf charges from 220v in 8 hours, (the Ford Focus EV does it in 4 hours) and fast charges from a 380v source in 30 minutes. These fast chargers were recently installed every 25 miles along the interstate from Washington all the way to California (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1071138_first-fast-charging-station-on-west-coast-electric-highway-work-starts) and if a 30 minute fast charge is too slow, Renault and Tesla EVs (and soon Nissan) can swap out their depleted battery for a freshly charged one in under 2 minutes at a Better Place swap station, provided an 8 cents per mile battery use subscription which places the responsibility for ensuring the batteries you get are in good condition with the company, not you. (http://www.betterplace.com/)
As for claims of toxicity, you may be thinking of battery chemistries such as lead acid, nickel metal hydride and ni-cad which contain toxic heavy metals and require emissions heavy smelting. Lithium metal is refined from lithium carbonate, a nontoxic mineral salt commonly made into a medicinal substance people consume. As lithium is a soft, sticky metal it can be hydraulically extruded rather than smelted, and every major EV maker already has a battery recycling program, so concerns that they will be thrown in landfills are unfounded. Even cell phone batteries containing lithium are commonly recycled.
Lastly, as for everyone promoting hydrogen, there is much you haven’t been told about fuel cells. How many of you know that they wear out and die much faster than batteries? How many of you know that even at economies of scale, fuel cell vehicles are slated to cost $88,000 (Hyundai’s Tucson ix) versus $75,000 for an electric car that has the exact same range and can battery swap/fast charge (Tesla Model S) in the same time (or less) than it takes to slowly refill the fuel cell vehicle’s pressurized tank? Ask someone with a compressed natural gas car, they’ll tell you it’s not as fast as refilling with a liquid fuel. And hydrogen today is split out of natural gas, it doesn’t come from electrolysis; that’s uneconomical, as it’s a tremendously lossy conversion process and there’s no sense in throwing away half of your electricity to make hydrogen, then throwing away half of that remaining energy in a 50% efficient fuel cell when you can just directly charge a lithium battery at 99% efficiency, then use that stored energy at 85% efficiency in an electric car. Fuel cells made sense when the EV alternative was lead acid and nickel metal hydride, but not anymore with the advent of lithium.
Nick,
This was honestly one of the worst debates I have ever read on electric vehicles. I, and anyone who follows the state of electrification with vehicles, would agree that the industry is not “mature” but it’s incredibly short-sighted and lazy to claim that biofuels are further along than electric vehicles. You might as well bring up IBM and their 500 mile lithium air battery since it’s closer to adoption than biofuels.
Second, you write “But the EV you buy today is stuck with the constraints of today’s technology forever, while a diesel owner benefits every time the fuel situation improves.” Huh? How has the “fuel system” improved for diesel in the last 20 years. Oh, you can make it after you fry some onion rings.
Electric vehicles are perfectly suited for advancing technology. When batteries improve, replacing a failing battery with one that is cheaper, lighter and carries you a multi-fold longer distance isn’t stuck at all. In fact, if there were 10% of the charging stations, they could support all of the elctrified vehicles for the next 100 years.
Then you obfuscate about “clean fuel” neglecting to mention that wind and solar and cleaner than biodiesel, and are growing faster than other local fuel supplies. Amir, hold his feet to the fire and don’t let him get away with that type of fuzzy thinking.
Good luck trying to discern a future when you don’t understand the present.
Thom
Biodiesel vs electric is a non argument. There is not enough feasibly available lanthanum in the world to go full electric, and there’s not enough feasibly available biomass to be converted to biodiesel. They are both dead ends.
Salomon, hydrogen is certainly a ‘fuel’. If you’ve learned so much jargon that you’ve forgotten the definition of that word, I suggest that you go refresh your memory.
Hydrogen IS the fuel of the future. However, it’s as useless today as electric or biodiesel, which are both functionally -useless- other than as marketing tools. As long as we are heavily reliant on coal, oil, and nuclear energy to produce our fuels, we are stuck. The only possible answer is large scale exploitation of green energy sources. Solar is the most readily exploitable today, but with proper investment there are a number of options.
of course it is, if only for the simple fact that electricity can be generated by oil, nuclear, coal, wind, water, solar, motion, gerbil wheels.
Personally, I would like to see cars that run on Hydrogen. Overall, I believe that it’s a cleaner alternative because with electricity, you are still relying on the power plants (coal, etc.). Plus, I’m pretty sure you can get more power out of Hydrogen.
You are still using those power plants to produce hydrogen.
electricity is NOT a fuel, it’s a damn energy vector
if you can produce electricity and use it in a car in more optimized way than burning gasoline, THEN you are cleaner than when you run on petrol, otherwise NOT
and now the systems are not yet so efficient
Actually this is mistaken. Electric cars do already make vastly more efficient use of energy than gas powered vehicles. This is because electric motors are 85% efficient at turning stored energy into wheel motion versus a 15% efficiency for internal combustion engines, which lose most of the energy in gas to waste heat, vibration and transmission friction. As a result, EVs consume much less energy per mile driven, and as such incur less pollution. Here is an MIT study demonstrating this: http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_wtw.pdf
Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/dt-debates-is-electricity-really-the-best-alternative-fuel-option-for-the-future-of-cars/#ixzz1wCj0Psie
btw Hydrogen is a vector too, it doesn’t exist: you have to produce it
and you know how? using energy!
so basically it’s like this:
1) use energy to produce hydrogen
2) you gain hydrogen with potential energy
3) burn/use cells to extract that energy from hydrogen and use it
4) go to 1
I feel they need to expand on hybrids and not try to make complete electric, since they are impractical for some people.